David, 35, is an Australian who is planning on going to fight in Ukraine against Russian forces (Image: Supplied)

When I ask to do an interview with Norman about his plans to head over to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, he reluctantly agrees while saying it’s against his best interests. The only reason he’s doing it is because, he says, “it’s a one-sided conversation at the moment”.

We use end-to-end encrypted service Wickr to speak. Norman — a pseudonym chosen by the man as a homage to Norman Prince, the founder of a WWI French Air Force unit comprising mostly American volunteer fighters — tells me he’s a middle-aged Australian who served in the French Foreign Legion and in the private sector. 

I found him online in a subreddit dedicated to people organising to go over and volunteer in Ukraine, mostly with an intent to fight. Dozens of people who say they’re Australian have claimed that they’re serious about going, although it’s impossible to know whether they’re serious or just shitposting. None of them seem to have any ties to Ukraine. I’ve messaged back and forth with a handful and conducted phone interviews with two of them to get a sense for how real their plans are. 

Norman is cagey about giving me too many details that would identify him, fearing some kind of government intervention. He shows me what he says are photographs of himself in army gear from his service, a bag packed with camouflage gear and WhatsApp messages with a non-government organisation (NGO) that show him trying to organise to provide personal protection.

Another Australian claiming to be seriously considering going is David, 35, who is also ex-military. Over encrypted platform Signal, he provides photographs of what he says is himself serving in the Australian Defence Force (ADF), along with a graduation certificate for the ADF Academy. While cautioning me that he would only join if it was clear that it wouldn’t be illegal and that he would be welcomed by Ukrainian forces, David repeatedly has to correct himself when he talks as if he’s definitely going: “when I go — err, if I go”, he says at one point.

Both men speak to similar motivations. They’re incensed by the injustice of Russia’s invasion. They feel a deep empathy and a desire to protect the people of Ukraine. And they’re worried about what example it sends to the world if Russia is successful.

“It’s a bit of an underdog story for Ukraine,” David tells me. “The whole world is watching.”

Deciding whether to fight in the Russia-Ukraine war

Norman and David both feel like they’re well equipped to help and ready to fight. Norman talks through the options of roles he could fill, such as assisting an NGO or joining a Ukrainian foreign legion: “Not necessarily being a combatant, but also not not being a combatant — if you understand what I mean.”

David is sceptical about Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy’s foreign legion idea — ”It’s a fantastic PR move … there’s probably a whole bunch of Ukrainian NCOs [non-commissioned officers] wondering why the fuck there’s a whole bunch of kids turning up at the border” — and is trying to figure out how he could legally defend Ukraine.

Earlier this week, Prime Minister Scott Morrison attempted to hose down any interest from Australian citizens heading over to fight by saying that the legal position “remains very unclear” (although it may be clearer than he lets on). That’s one of the major issues for David.

“You could become a stateless prisoner of war who is labelled as a mercenary, or end up designated as a terrorist,” he said. 

Another concern? “Nazis,” he says bluntly. I’m not sure if he’s joking or not. 

Norman has a list of questions that he needs to answer before he heads over. He talks about how he’s trying to make an informed decision by getting as much information about the state of the invasion and the best ways to actually make it into Ukraine, even “wrestling with philosophy” over whether he should go.

Concerns about other Australians “YOLO-ing over there on a GoFundMe”

While both men seem to be carefully moving towards heading over, they say that the mood in online forums and chats where Australians are organising themselves is more pompous and macho — something that worries each of them. While defending the idea that someone without military training could be useful in a war, Norman confesses that he’s not sure that many people intending to go over would be prepared for the harshness of war.

“I have real concern that you have all these people showing up from around the world, united and deploying to an active front with minimal basic training,” he said.

David echoes that fear of people “YOLO-ing”.

“I think a lot of them are very young. There’s two 16-year-olds who are in one of the group chats where they’re talking about group-sharing houses, pooling finances for flights,” David said. 

The pair differ in how they feel about Australia’s response so far. Norman’s anger is palpable as he speaks scathingly of Morrison’s handling of the crisis. He criticises how little Australia has given, how Morrison attempted to discourage Australians from going to fight alongside Ukrainians, even labelling it a “suicide mission”.

“The heavy footedness of telling people on the ground that it’s a suicide mission. That’s abhorrent. Whatever he says, I have little desire to hear it because it’s not rooted in any truth. Everything seems to be a political balancing act,” he said.

On the other hand, David told me he is pleasantly surprised by the amount of economic commitment from Australia. His attempt to go over there, though, is something that he hopes will force the government’s hand: “Having your own citizens there sends a message.” 

Pulling the trigger on going

For all the talk from the pair, neither is confirmed to go over. David says he’s been talking to two people who’ve already made it to the border of Ukraine. Another Australian told me he’s flying to Poland today and promised to call me when he gets there. One Polish man told David that two travellers who turned up in Lviv were told to “fuck off because they didn’t have military experience”. 

But the pair seem deadly serious about it. They’ve considered what happens if they get caught — “I don’t intend on being picked up by a Russian team and being paraded on camera. I won’t have any identification,” Norman tells me — and they don’t expect any support from the Australian government if something goes awry. 

Death, of course, is on their minds. Norman more than once mentions dying and being left in a ditch. David decries posturing from some group members who say they’re ready to die for Ukraine. 

“I don’t want to die; I want to help — and you can’t help if you die,” David tells me.