‘How do we move forward?’: edited transcript of Hillsong’s March 18 all-staff meeting

Last week Crikey reported exclusively on allegations levelled at Hillsong’s figurehead and stood-aside global pastor, Brian Houston. Hillsong later issued its statement on what was said at the all-staff meeting but it omitted important details. To give you the full picture, Crikey is publishing a transcript of the audio recording which was leaked to us. It has been edited to remove extraneous material.

Pastor Phil Dooley, Hillsong’s interim global pastor:

At the start of this year, there was an announcement made by Pastor Brian that he would be stepping aside for 12 months, for the reason of his own personal health and emotional well-being and because of the court case that he is going to be dealing with at the end of the year. And Lucinda and I were asked to step into this interim role. And the reason why he took that step is absolutely the truth. That is why he took that step.

Prior to that, there are two incidents involving Pastor Brian that, as a board, we have had to deal with. And those incidents, firstly, involved something that happened approximately 10 years ago. [There are] two complaints against Pastor Brian and these allegations were treated very seriously. And I believe real significant steps were taken to investigate and resolve them.

The first incident involved Pastor Brian text-messaging with a female member of staff, which ended in an inappropriate text message along the lines of “If I was with you, I’d like to give you a kiss and a cuddle, or a hug”, words of that nature. That particular staff member was obviously upset by that and felt awkward and I think responded to that. [She] went to George Aghajanian and decided that she would like to leave staff because of that. And so she did. Brian was very apologetic for that. And I think, Pastor Brian, it was dealt with by George Aghajanian and Nabi Saleh.

I personally was not aware of that, as was the majority of the global board, until the end of last year, 2021. That was the first incident. 

Along with that, this particular staff member came back because she couldn’t get work. Came back a few months later and said: “I’m really struggling to get a job. I feel it’s unfair that I had to leave my job the way I did, and I would like some compensation for that.” 

And so it was decided that she would be paid a couple of months’ salary for what had happened to her. And so that is what happened in that scenario. Then Pastor Brian said: “I want to pay that personally, because I don’t think it’s fair on the church to pay that salary because it was my indiscretion.” So he personally paid that back.

So that’s the first incident.

[The second incident took place during the 2019 Hillsong conference.]

[It was] in the foyer, after one of the conference nights, drinking with a group, and [there was] quite a group there in the foyer of the Pullman [hotel]. 

And there was a woman there that from what I’m told he didn’t have any specific interaction with. And Pastor Brian had also been on anxiety tablets. What I neglected to mention is that, in the first instance with the text messaging, at that time Pastor Brian had also been struggling with taking sleeping tablets, and he’d been taking those.

And so it would appear that the sleeping tablets did contribute to his behavior, but he has taken full responsibility for that.

George Aghajanian, general manager Hillsong (interjects):

Sorry. Phil, can I just add one thing with regard to that? I’m sorry to interrupt you. He had a dependency on sleeping tablets back there, and through professional health we got him off those tablets. Totally off those tablets. So I just want to make sure everybody’s aware of that.

Pastor Phil Dooley:

OK. So, the second incident in 2019 was, like I say, the Pullman hotel, where there was a group drinking, and there was a woman [who was] part of that group who was part of our church. Not on staff or anything. And later that evening Brian had also been taking anxiety tablets. And later that evening, he went to attempt to go to his room. Didn’t have his room key, and ended up knocking on the door of this woman’s room. And she opened the door, and he went into her room.

The truth is, we don’t know exactly what happened next. This woman has not said that there was any sexual activity. Brian has said there was no sexual activity. But he was in the room for 40 minutes. He doesn’t have much of a recollection because of, he says, the mixture of the anxiety tablets and the alcohol. This woman had also been drinking. And so her recollection is not completely coherent. So, based on that, that happened. This particular woman then felt, obviously, a whole lot of conflicting emotions. She then went and spoke to someone on staff, who then spoke to someone. I think, ultimately went to Brian and Brian referred it to George. And it was brought to the attention of the global board.

The global board obviously takes these things very seriously and looks at it from the perspective of, what is our response to a matter of this nature. At this time when this happened in 2019, myself and I think majority of the global board were not aware of the earlier issue. And so, that was taken very seriously. 

There was an integrity unit of four people sent to deal with this appropriately with Brian. And that was George Aghajanian, Melody Sarly, Phil Denton and Gary Clarke. 

And again, this was something that was taken really seriously, and [taken from the point of view of] OK, what is the best way to deal with a situation of this nature? What does our governance say about this? We had previously been in the ACC [Australian Christian Churches], and it was: what is the ACC governance in an issue of this nature, of this category? How should this be dealt with? And it was decided based on …

And, sorry, also there were two outside sources, pastors, who were included in that [investigation unit]: Paul de Jong was brought in to be part of the process, and Chris Hodges. 

And ultimately, through all of that, as you can imagine, not easy. The goal is always restoration. The goal is always health. Yes, discipline is required. But from the perspective and position of how does someone get healthy and healed from things of a sinful nature like this?

And it was decided that Brian should take three months off, and he would, in his own words, abstain from alcohol in that time. Three months from ministry work. Unfortunately he didn’t abide by that. He did conduct some ministry, I believe, on three separate occasions. And he also did, as he would say, consume some alcohol. And it was brought again to the board’s attention at the end of last year, when an email was sent to a whole group of elders. Elders are a group that are based primarily out of the Hills and the city campus in Sydney. They’re not part of the global governance. But they have been involved in processes of wisdom, prayer, counsel, all of those things.

They became aware of it. The Australian board was presented with this information. And so again, further discussion was had. And It was decided from all of that, that Brian needed to take further time off, which he did in December. And he has not conducted ministry from the beginning of December onwards.

And at the same time, it was discussed with him about his general level of health and the effect of alcohol. And his response was: “I understand. I need to deal with this, and didn’t get it right the first time.” And the board said: “Well, you need to take that extra extended time off,” which he did. And then in ongoing, it was decided, beyond that: “You need to get healthy. And so you need to take this extra time, because you’ve got the court case and because there are underlying issues here.” And that’s when I was asked — and Lucinda — to step into this role that we’re currently in.

There was a lot of conversation, discussion, back and forth, about how to deal with this, and also what statements to be made. And I think what’s happening now is, there’s people who are going: “Well, there was a statement that Brian made, that he’s taking time off, and it’s not reflective or mentioning these other issues. And therefore it could appear to be a cover-up.” I would say that I believe the board acted appropriately under the circumstances of the information that were given to them, and with a desire to see Brian healthy. And then look at, well, what does the future look like for Pastor Brian?

And so it was decided that a statement would be made that focused on where he was at with regard to his own health and emotional needs to get better, and the court case. 

But in these situations, in light of what has happened, with the evidence that was before the global board, the decision was made to offer, I suppose, what I would call grace, and not to cover up but to not expose. And I think there are people who had different opinions about that, and I understand that. And the idea or desire was, if Brian would use that time to get healthy. And then, like I say, it would be considered what his future would look like. And we, I think as a church, we have always been a church that sees the grace of God expressed in Jesus. And that our desire is not to expose anyone but to give people room to be restored, and to give people room to repent, and to move forward, and to have the right people know, and the right people offer accountability and a process to move forward to health and community.

And so that is the situation with those two incidents. What has now happened is — although all the elders, the Australian board, and the global board agreed to this statement — it appears that some elders, once the statement came out, decided they don’t like the way it’s been stated. And so they have started to talk to other people. Which I suppose on one hand I understand. On another hand it’s disappointing, because that was confidential information. And I feel like if they weren’t happy with the first statement, then it would’ve been better to have said it then and worked it through then. But I suppose they would have reasons why they felt uncomfortable, or unable to do that.

So that’s where we are now. I wanted you guys to hear from me where we’re at. And I want to also say this couple of things I want to say. One is, there are victims in this. And we, as a church, are always looking out for those who feel like they have been a victim, and want to support them and love them and for them to feel safe. It’s important that anyone who comes to our church — on staff or in the congregation — feels that our church is a safe church, a church where they can come and not feel like they are going to be subject to any form of abuse or harassment. And it’s important that we all understand that, and we recognise that. And that doesn’t matter at what level someone is operating. As I say, from a senior pastor, right a way through, there are victims here, and we’re deeply sorry for those victims, and for what they’ve had to go through and what they’ve had to endure.

I think we also need to acknowledge that as a church, as a board, as a governance, we need to look at, are we doing things in the most healthy way — trustworthy? I believe we have a bunch of very trustworthy people, but as our church has grown around the world, maybe we need to look at some other things that can help us to be more careful in issues of governance and accountability and who takes responsibility. And consider where is there a power imbalance, and what we need to do to address that. So I think all of those things, I would say, are up on the table as we move forward. I would say my prayer is that we would continue to be a church that is a grace environment. We’re not about exposing people. We’re not about covering sin.

And I look at the example of Jesus, and I look at, what does the Bible say about these situations? And so that’s what I want us to keep coming back to. And we acknowledge Pastor Brian has made significant mistakes here. And no one — myself, I don’t believe anyone at a senior level — wants to cover any of that up but simply desires for him, like any one of us, to come to a place of healing. Which involves honesty, it involves transparency, it involves repentance, all of those things, and acknowledgment where there has been mistakes made. And a desire to make it right. And that has been Pastor Brian’s heart.

The only other thing is that this woman in the 2019 scenario, after this whole incident, asked for her conference fee returned and her Kingdom Builders [donation to the church].

And again, Pastor Brian with remorse said: “I don’t want the church to have to pay that. I will personally pay,” because of his desire to acknowledge where he’d made a mistake.

I just ask that we would all pray for anyone who has been a victim of any form of harassment or abuse, because it’s not right. It’s not fair. It’s not who we are as a church. And we want those people to feel like they are welcome, and loved, and cared for in our church.

But we also do want to pray for Pastor Brian, and for [his wife] Bobbie, and for their family. Because obviously there is a lot of pain associated with this. Sin is messy, and it brings all kinds of pain. My prayer is, as a church through this, we can look at ourselves honestly and ask ourselves where have we fallen short, and where do we need to repent, and ask for forgiveness, and ask God to guide us forward, in a way that is healing for those who may be hurting in this group and within our church. And my prayer is filled with hope that through all of this we can create a healthier environment, to build our church going forward. And pray that through all of this Pastor Brian will be in a healthy position, for his own life and his own future, and Bobbie also. 

George Aghajanian, general manager Hillsong:

Thanks, Phil. I just wanted to just say a couple of comments here. There’s a lot of rumours around at the moment, and people are just accepting those rumours as fact. And I would encourage you to be very, very careful. And those rumours have originally started with a handful of people. A few of the elders. Not all the elders are on the same page as these few individuals. And they have talked extensively to people on our staff, and in our church, unfortunately. But they were never involved in the initial situation. They were never involved in the investigations that we conducted.

The global board is tasked with the responsibility of overseeing all of our pastors, the credentialing, the disciplining, the restoration process. Not the elders. The elders’ role is to basically pray for people, and to care for people spiritually. But beyond that they have no government’s authority in our church. And yet a very few of them are speaking as if they have a lot of authority. And the reality is that it’s the global board’s responsibility to make sure that when situations arise — whether it’s with any of our pastors or Pastor Brian — we abide by our code of conduct and our disciplinary restoration process. Which are documents that were instilled when we took over that function from the ACC several years ago now.

So I’m asking all of you to be very careful what you’re listening to, what information is shared with you. Because I personally have heard a lot of misinformation about what Pastor Brian has done, and it’s false. And I’ve heard of all sorts of information about “he’s paid hush money, and he tried to cover things up”. It’s not true. 

And having voices from all around contributing into this equation is unhelpful.

Pastor Phil Dooley:

This is obviously the beginning of a conversation, and what I believe is going to help all of us. The goal is to, somehow through pain, [understand]: what is God teaching us? What are we learning? How do we move forward? And also to pray for all those who have experienced, like I say, any form of pain or harassment in any form, and continue to pray for Pastor Brian as well, and our whole church.