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Pride is an interesting word. Relevantly, it means “consciousness of one’s own dignity”, although that tends to be conflated with its other meaning, a feeling of satisfaction with one’s own achievements.
“Pride” as a shorthand for LGBTIQA+ identity derives from the earlier notion of being “out and proud”, a positive declaration of equal human dignity. A tinge of the other pride runs there too, because coming out was and remains an act requiring courage.
It is, therefore, the perfect word for what it describes. But it is also a loaded word.
Prides collide this week at the Manly Warringah Rugby League Club in Sydney, as seven members of the club’s first grade team have declared that they won’t be taking the field for Thursday night’s game against the Roosters — if they are required to wear a “pride” jersey.
Manly has had a special jumper designed for one wearing, featuring a rainbow motif, calling it an “inclusivity jersey”. Presumably the club didn’t think there’d be any issue, so it hadn’t consulted or warned the players before unveiling the design.
The refuseniks’ objection is reportedly on cultural or religious grounds. The issue is, of course, that their personal religious beliefs don’t include acceptance of homosexuality, and presumably they don’t feel they can comfortably wear a jumper that communicates such acceptance as a social norm.
Some would call that conviction, others pride. What one wears is an expression of identity, of course, and pride includes both what one is and what one is not. The seven players are, I imagine, proud of their principled stance.
That just takes us back into the morass of religious freedom v sexual/gender identity equality, the pointless argument that gave us the marriage equality plebiscite and Katherine Deves. The players are absolutely right if you share their beliefs, or absolutely wrong if you don’t.
What’s the legal position? The Morrison government failed to pass any religious freedom law, and the NSW government has not yet carried through its announced plan to add religious discrimination to its anti-discrimination legislation. As the law stands, therefore, the Manly players have no claim that they are the victims of discrimination by being required to wear a jumper that offends their religious beliefs.
It may be that if the players refuse to play they will be in breach of their employment contracts; that depends entirely on the terms of those contracts. It sounds like a non-issue, because Manly reportedly is allowing them to voluntarily stand down without penalty. If it did move against them, the players might seek to invoke protections under the federal Fair Work Act against religious discrimination by employers.
The AFL has had a pride round for years. The NRL has been a leader on racial/ethnic inclusivity, but traditionally lags in other aspects of social progress. It has a particular complexity when it comes to LGBTIQA+ identity: the extremely high proportion of Pasifika-background players in the NRL, very many of whom are attached to conservative Christian faiths.
That’s just a practical consideration, not an ethical one. The NRL says it is inclusive as a principle; LGBTIQA+ people exist and are entitled to be and feel welcomed. The code and its clubs will have to face up to the issue and navigate their way through it. Blindsiding their players is not a good start.
The media are busily blowing up the Manly story because who doesn’t love a culture war, but we’d be wiser to take a long view on this. We know where the arc of progress goes. Let the players sit the game out; they can wear their prejudice with pride. Ultimately, what no doubt feels to them to be a stand, will prove to have been merely a footnote.
I’d take your point further – is there any real problem in allowing some players to wear the ‘normal’ jumper, and others to wear the ‘pride’ jumper? It’s not as if anyone (on the field or off) is going to be confused about which team people are playing for. Let tolerance include tolerance for alternate points of view. I don’t see any good coming out of forcing people to act against their principles – even if I don’t agree with them. As long as the laws protect and support LGBTIQA+ people I see no harm in allowing people to take their time in changing their mind, adn potentially a lot of harm in forcing the issue.
Mind you, easy for me to say – old, white, male, heterosexual…
That’s a reasonable option. I suspect that most of the run on squad will either wear the Pride jersey happily, or at least with meh.
What? And identify the bigots? Now there’s an idea…
What BS! It’s one thing to tolerate others’ differences, quite another to ask people with strong religious beliefs to endorse that different group or its behaviour. Calling the conservative Christian players ‘bigots’ is in itself bigoted and offensive. We don’t demand that Muslims eat pork or endorse alcohol, so how about letting these guys live up to their beliefs??
You seem to have misunderstood the article. The bigoted Christians are not being asked to eat the pride jumpers.
No. They are being asked to wear something that “supports” a social movement that goes against their personal beliefs. Not wanting to support something publicly doesn’t make you a bigot. They have their rights as well.
Do the players deeply concerned about gambling addiction wear a jersey with a different/no sponsor?
Club Sponsorship by legal products and services is not a social movement.
I have never been permitted to behave outside the bounds set by an employer because I’ve been a member of a “social movement”. My personal activities have always been considered my personal business and I suspect I’d be considered to be acting outside my employers’ codes of practice and found myself attracting a fair bit of negative scrutiny at my annual performance review and possibly some kind of performance management.
Quite right. To a point. And then you have to resign.
Well it is, actually. It is all social, and it worth swimming against the tide of gaming revenue driven sports.
Neither is acknowledging reality. Gay people exist.
So you need to wear a jersey with rainbow stripes on against your beliefs?
Thought the same thing. Ironically lots of fundo religious and others have moral qualms about gambling. But hey that’s commerce and so immune to moral debate? And sexuality and policing of sexuality are real “hot button” issues for the religious. Cue the Freudians. Still the club seems to have come up with a policy that lets bigots be bigots but with minimal infliction of their bigotry on others.
Or alcohol? Or DV? The list is endless. I support LBGTIQA+ and the various religions. I think the Pride shirt was a great idea but badly communicated as Des Hasler has said. The old saying: “Communication is the key” still holds good. Many years ago I gave a talk on “But why do I feel the door is shut and I’m on the wrong side without a key?” It was to a regional health meeting and is just as true today as then!
good point. They should be refusing to endorse gambling.
I be t that as soon as a player does that, suddenly players’ personal feelings will be irrelevant.
Being gay or gender diverse is not a social movement, you bloody drongo!
Yes it is Dipstick if you are asking someone to publicly “Support” it. They have the right to say no as well.
Yes it is if you are asking someone to publicly “Support” it. They have the right to say no as well.
No offense, but it is.
I assume that every member of the team is a rabid gambler? Happy with the much bigger endorsement of gambling? Surely a huge social problem
But many of them do eat pork and drink alcohol on the sly. And I am sure have sex with other men on the down low. The real problem they have is being publicly associated with a tolerance for homosexuality not the actual act as long as it is performed in secret.
I don’t recall Jesus refusing to tolerate the unwanted.
I would love for these guys to live up to their beliefs. “Love one another as I have loved you”.
Oh sorry, I didn’t realise you knew them personally.
“…is there any real problem in allowing some players to wear the ‘normal’ jumper, and others to wear the ‘pride’ jumper?”
Up to a point that does look reasonable, but I think there is a real problem. When the team appears divided into those with and those without the ‘pride’ jumper the result is just that – division. What was a game of footbal becomes also a loyalty test, a search for heresy, unsound opinions and an inquisition into beliefs that have little to do with playing football. It puts each player on the front line of the culture wars whether they choose to be there or not. It is an attack on the player’s privacy. It is actually worse than forcing them all to wear the ‘pride’ jumper, because if they all must wear it nobody can infer their personal views from what they are wearing.
While I understand the complexities of the issues I am not sure I follow your point – by standing out from the game the players will also show division exits and then put themselves clearly out there as not supporting gay price issues. Wonder how Ian Roberts (that real man of conviction and courage) feels about his old club now
Yes, I think the players refusing to appear in the jumpers have made a serious tactical error, because their choice will certainly be interpreted as indicative of some belief. They would have done better instead to insist the club issues a statement that wearing the design is a contractual obligation not open to negotiation or discussion.
The club has now issued an apology to the players for how this entire matter has been handled and confirmed that the players concerned will not play this round.
He has spoken eloquently and sensitively and said that he’d like an opportunity to sit down and talk with these players.
The club was told by the NRL that all players must wear the same jumper. But the club did try. Some profound “liberals” claim that you should tolerate all different views, including those that show prejudice. I do not agree. We should be intolerant of all views that deny fellow citizens their basic rights, which include freedom of association. People of all races and sexual orientation are entitled to participate in sports and religious prejudices must not be allowed to infringe on that right. Religious freedom should be freedom to practice any religion that tolerates different religious and moral faiths or beliefs, not the freedom to practice religions that do not tolerate other points of view on the ends of life and the best ways to get there.
You couldn’t resist a twist of sneering contempt at the end, could you.
The pride iconography is explicitly pro-LGBT. I’m explicitly pro-LGBT. Fine, make it mandatory if you want. Disdain the people who disagree with your views if you want. Exclude and penalise them if you want. But describe that enforcement of your ideological program with the words ‘inclusion’ and ‘diversity’ and you’ll be rightly despised for your hypocrisy.
Yes. Australia is a free country but only if you agree with the left majority ideology. Wearing Sponsors Logos is a totally different thing to supporting a social movement that some of them disagree with. Cancel Culture at its finest yet again.
Their employer has asked them to wear it. Being cynical, it is a marketing move- promoting the game as less blimey and more appealing to all. It’s not the same as cancel culture, these guys get paid heaps to do what the club and code request.
#blokey
Cancel culture at its finest is religious persecution of anyone “different”
Small but significant correction:
“Their employer has
askedrequired them to wear it.”The club requires them to wear the team strip every time they play.
And your point is… ?
Cancel Culture in another form. Vilification for their beliefs. The principles of diversity and equality do not require anyone to publicly “support” anything and these players are also covered by those principles. It’s also against the Fair Work Act to force these players to do something against their religious beliefs. Tolerance of beliefs is what is required by all parties.
Utter tosh. This is a simple matter of an employer committed to equality and diversity and some of its employees not similarly committed. Nothing to do with left wing ideology and everything to do with how an employment contract works especially with those who wont shape up to employer expectations. Under right wing ideology they would get the boot…..unless they are being homophobic in the name of religion, it seems.
Bollocks. The principles of diversity and equality do not require anyone to publicly support anything and these players are also covered by those principles. Try terminating someone under the Fair Work Act for their religious beliefs. BTW. You can’t contract outside the Law so they are within their rights if they are being asked to do something against their beliefs. Diversity and equality works both ways. All parties have to tolerate and not discriminate. They don’t have to publicly advocate though.
“This is a simple matter of an employer committed to equality and diversity.” How is this situation equal or diverse? What if players were being asked to wear a Christian cross?
Feels like this sort of thing is the inevitable consequence of having morality as an open question. While I can’t see the big deal in wearing the jerseys given no player kicks up a fuss over sponsors no matter how awful the sponsors can be, people should be able to be conscientious objectors without it being the end of the world.
To me, this is what moral disagreement looks like. Like taking a knee during the national anthem.
Except these players and role models are saying they can’t support gay people. How does my 15 yo gay son interpret that? I’m not welcome and a lot of people hate me for being myself.
How does my 7-year-old Christian son interpret that? I’m not welcome and a lot of people hate me for being myself. Didn’t a white stripe include everyone?
Bradley starts with the assumption that the objections of some players to these jumpers must be down to the particular issue that inspired this change of the jumper’s design. There is surely another possible objection that is more general. The players are employed to play football. It’s not obvious why they all should also be, on demand and without giving their consent, walking billboards for any cultural, political or social messages that the club wishes to promote. If it’s in their contracts that they must do this, then sure enough they are stuck with it, but it is not unreasonable if they prefer to just play football, keep their opinions to themselves and not be exploited for propaganda on matters with no direct connection to playing professional football.
They’re happy to be walking billboards for a gambling company…..so what’s their problem with adding a rainbow?
Hard to argue about the gambling thing. I personally hate it, and the fact that every single club has a gambling ‘sponsor’ (not to mention Foxtel’s promotion of exotic bets). We don’t allow alcohol ads during kids’ viewing time but are happy to brainwash the little kiddies into thinking that gambling is OK, even exciting? Can’t wait for the Government to stamp out promotion of one of the most insidious diseases in this country. But back to the point: most religions are not anti-gambling – indeed many run bingo etc to raise funds! But a few are definitely anti-gay.
Gambling and alcohol are legal activities and products.
Not being heterosexual is legal.
Yes and so is not publicly supporting it.
There are legal limitations to advertising both alcohol and gambling
Not illegal true, but hugely immoral. Gambling sponsorship takes the joy out of sport for me.
I don’t consider it immoral but I’m not a gambler. I don’t pay attention to the ads.
You don’t have to be a gambler to consider it immoral; you just need to be part of a society devastated by this predatory upwards wealth redistribution scam.
Good for you, not paying attention to the ads. That’ll make em go away quick smart. Because advertising scum don’t know what they’re doing with their highly refined bastardry.
It’s called self-control. Something sadly lacking in society these days.
So is being LGBTIQA+. So is having a religion in which you believe.
I think they are referred to as “wagering partners” because there is nothing like covering up your embarrassment with a fig leaf.
Sponsorship in exchange for players wearing the sponsor’s logo is part of the business of professional sport. It’s a commercial deal included in the contracts the players sign. That is different to being told to wear cultural, political or social messages for non-commercial reasons. It seems to me the players can very reasonably object to this, unless they have already signed contracts that include being obliged to wear anything at all they are given and they understood what it could involve when they signed the contract.
Mmm, is that the smell of heterosexual privilege I detect?
It’s the smell of respecting privacy and the idea that one should be able to do one’s job without being obliged to make irrelevant full public declarations of one’s beliefs on everything.
It’s not necessarily a personal belief – they’re simply wearing a uniform of a club with a message that says the club promotes inclusivity. Oh, and gambling.
Why the moral outrage about inclusivity but not about the harms from gambling?
Respecting privacy my backside. It is not irrelevant if your employer is committed to principles of diversity and equality and you, as a contracted employee is obliged by the conditions of your employment to be a part of that. No exemptions. I don’t know of any other workplace that would be held to ransom by religious beliefs that end up discriminating against the most vulnerable. Check your privilege.
You are repeating yourself. I’ve answered this elsewhere.
You’re full of it Rat. Park your self importance mate
Now there’s a well-crafted argument that contributes to the discussion!
Lot of that about here lately, no matter the topic. What has happened to the quality of posters? Once so much better informed and more reasonable than the articles, the recent influx doesn’t even rise to being ‘trulls‘.
The principles of diversity and equality do not require anyone to publicly support anything and these players are also covered by those principles. Try terminating someone under the Fair Work Act for their religious beliefs. BTW. You can’t contract outside the Law so they are within their rights if they are being asked to do something against their beliefs.
Christianity has an awful lot to say about the kinds of dishonest and predatory behaviours on which the gambling industry is built, and it’s not supportive.
Legal products and services that the Government makes too much money from. Good luck with that.
These players aren’t acting on behalf of a government. They are supporting the dishonest and predatory unChristian behaviour on which the gambling industry is built on a personal level if we believe their argument about the pride pattern.
Reading too much in to it and trying to compare it with industries just doesn’t cut it. You can’t force people to change their beliefs and nor should anyone attempt to. Doesn’t mean they are discriminating, dishonest or predatory personally. Simply because someone doesn’t want to support your cause doesn’t make them your enemy. Treating them as the enemy will, however, make them your enemy. Time changes attitudes, not pressure.
Honesty and not doing harm aren’t a matter of over thinking to Christians. These are fundamental values for us. They are taught in our very first bibles – the ones with lots of beautiful illustrations we have before we can read – and are emphasized by our parents along with other fundamental values like love and acceptance.
So who are they harming by not wearing a symbol on their jersey? Nobody.
There is plenty of sound research into the harms caused by the gambling industry’s predatory behaviour. There is also plenty of sound research into the harms caused by the discrimination and persecution of people who aren’t cisgender or heterosexual. You will be able to locate open access research through Google Scholar or access paywalled research publications through your local or state library.
This situation is relevant to us all more generally and we also shouldn’t lose sight of that. Each of us seeking to live by our fundamental values (whether they are informed by religion or not) find those values much easier to live when they are values we can impose on others. The real test of our commitment comes in our day to day adherence to our values, particularly when living by our values means we have to sacrifice our desires.
In this case the desire to earn a living playing rugby league by, in part, supporting gambling is motivating players to ignore their fundamental (Christian) values of being honest and not doing harm to others. At the same time, they are seeking to harm people who aren’t heterosexual or cisgender because their (Christian) values tell them they must do so.
Learning to be better at living according to our values is a process. These players choose to live that process publicly so I think it would be great if took up Ian Roberts offer to sit down and talk with honesty and goodwill. That is consistent with their Christian values and respects the process that our society is working through.
How on earth are they “they are seeking to harm people who aren’t heterosexual or cisgender”? They aren’t harming anyone. They are simply unwilling to display a symbol that represents only a part of the spectrum of society due to their religious beliefs. That is their right or is it now only the rights of the LGBTQ Community that matter?
Find a symbol that reflects diversity and inclusiveness for all spectrums of society and that may be a different story. Tolerance is not just the responsibility of the Religious Community either, it’s also incumbent upon the LGBTQ Community to be tolerant of others beliefs as long as they aren’t advocating violence or discrimination.
The gambling argument doesn’t cut the mustard with me even though I don’t gamble. It’s legal and they have a right to advertise. If it’s that harmful, complain to your Federal Member. Good luck with that.
“How on earth are they “they are seeking to harm people who aren’t heterosexual or cisgender”?”
This is a question you need to ask because you are arguing from a position of ignorance. You have spent time arguing with a number of people from a position of ignorance which doesn’t achieve anything except to demonstrate that you have learning to do.
There’s nothing wrong with having learning to do; we all have much to learn. I highly recommend the research literature in the area. It has taught me a lot, as has listening to people’s lived experience.
I am quite well informed thank you. I suggest that you also do some “learning” . One person’s rights do not supercede another’s and diversity and inclusion covers everyone not just a section of society that feels aggrieved.
You cannot, and should not, ever attempt to force your views on another. Tolerance of others beliefs also applies to the LGBTQ Community as well as everybody else. You don’t have to agree with them or like them, nor they you, but you do have to tolerate and respect each other’s views.
But it’s OK for them to be walking billboards for any commercial messages that the club wishes to promote?
See my reply to Paige Turner.
Why? It’s just specious trolling.
Except that the NRL, like all enlightened workplaces makes it a condition of employment that you are committed to equality and diversity. It’s not propaganda. It’s part of your job. If the terms of your employment are not satisfactory you either renegotiate or go elsewhere. That’s how it works. Hiding behind religious belief is utterly specious.
That commitment is fine. Entirely proper. No objection. That is a separate matter from being told to dress up and go out in public to promote a message that is nothing to do with your job. Respecting equality and diversity is quite different to what is going on here, which is expoitation for propaganda. It would show more genuine respect for equality and diversity if the club did not engage in such stunts.
The message they are being asked to promote IS respect for equality and diversity. If someone is unable to support that basic principle, how can they ask for the same respect in return?
But why not nail your true colours to the mast, SSRat, and call it ‘the gay agenda’? We can hear you thinking it.
We certainly would not be having this debate if it was about defending racist or anti-Semitic beliefs on ‘religious grounds’. But somehow, respect for LGBTQ people is still ‘propaganda’, a ‘social movement’ etc.
I think you may find that the “rainbow stripes” are seen by certain parts of the community as only representing the LGBTQ community rather than “diversity and inclusion” across the board.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_flag_(LGBT)
Diversity and inclusion, by its very nature, must include all sections of the Community and any symbol should reflect that. From what I can gather, the players concerned see it as advocating only the LGBTQ Community and not “diversity and inclusion”.
As to respect, criticising anyone that doesn’t agree with your beliefs certainly won’t get you respected. Both sides have to be tolerant and respectful of each others beliefs. It can’t be all one-sided.
Auditory hallucinations are not uncommon. You could seek help. And is that the royal “we” or do you also believe you are several persons?
Yet they promote gambling when their job is simply to run into each other.
See my reply to Paige Turner.
It’s called sponsorship and it’s in every sport.
Why?
Pretty silly question. Commercial arrangement.
Interesting that ideas of equality and inclusion come from Christianity- everyone is made in the image of God and people should love one another as themselves. Please look at other ancient belief systems.
You’re overthinking this. And assuming the average player thinks about it as well. Their jumpers change weekly for all sorts of reasons.I suspect the Pacifika players are more riled by the homophobic comments they get from their mates back home than any assumptions the NSW NRL public will read into it.
Player don’t get a say in the club colours.
Not a club colour in this instance. It’s a marketing symbol as part of a Jersey re-design that goes against the religious beliefs of some players. Remember Israel Folau? I’m not religious or anti-LBGTQ but I don’t believe that anyone should be forced to publicly support anything that goes against someone’s beliefs. Tolerance and respect is a two way street.
More of a cul-de-sac – jeu de mots non intentionnel.
I think you need to draw a distinction between supporting somebody who is downtrodden and actively supporting somebody whose life decisions are at odds with your own beliefs. Why not make the rainbow jerseys optional to reflect everybody’s sincere beliefs?
Why not make the NRL like any other workplace that is committed to equality and diversity and requires it of their employees? Shape up or ship out. It’s how it works elsewhere. The NRL is not special and nor are those whose beliefs entrench discrimination, and on a basis that Jesus never carried on about.
The principles of diversity and equality do not require anyone to publicly support anything and these players are also covered by those principles.
They are only being asked to publicly support the principle of diversity and equality
I think you may find that the “rainbow stripes” are seen by certain parts of the community as only representing the LGBTQ community rather than “diversity and inclusion” across the board.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_flag_(LGBT)
Diversity and inclusion, by its very nature, must include all sections of the Community and any symbol should reflect that. From what I can gather, the players concerned see it as advocating only the LGBTQ Community and not “diversity and inclusion”.
Sexuality isn’t a “life decision”. It’s a biological fact.
Never said it was.
ElCee wasn’t replying to you, they were replying to someone who said exactly that. Sexuality is not a “life decision” believing in a god is.